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Re: [Rollei] re:OT 1911



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At 09:27 PM 5/28/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Frank,
>
>Apologies because this is very off track.
>
>Frank, nothing has changed.
>
>Following the atrocious act of the Dunblane school massacre a few years ago
>(which no one condones) ALL licensed handguns were banned and had to be
>handed in. Compensation for the cost of the handguns was promised but still
>has not been paid to many individuals, so a keen club pistol shooter who
>"handed over and lost" two pistols tells me.
>
>The US constitution with the right to bear arms would be welcomed by some of
>us in the UK.

The U.S. Constitution is pretty much silent on the right of individuals to 
bear arms.  More specifically, the second amendment reads as follows:


Amendment II

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, 
the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

It's clear that if a person is a member of "A well regulated militia", he 
can bear arms as a member.  Beyond that, the individual's right to bear 
arms has only been established on the basis of common law at that time, and 
general usage since that amendment was passed.

Here is a quote from the Congressional Record dealing with a gun control 
bill, and you will see that it points towards tradition more than the Bill 
of Rights:

'The right to bear arms is a tradition with deep roots in American society. 
Thomas Jefferson proposed that "no free man shall ever be debarred the use 
of arms," and Samuel Adams called for an amendment banning any law "to 
prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from 
keeping their own arms." The Constitution of the State of Arizona, for 
example, recognizes the "right of an individual citizen to bear arms in 
defense of himself or the State." '

Note that I underlined "tradition" in that quote.  It isn't underlined in 
the Gun Control Committee report from which it is extracted.

>An Englishman's home is no longer his castle. An elderly
>farmer who shot and killed one of two burglars coming up the stairs to get
>to him is being refused early release from a 7 year jail sentence because he
>does not show sufficient remorse and might offend again! The burglars had
>travelled 60 miles to break into his remote farm, which had been broken into
>a number of times before.

That general situation holds in the U.S. as well.  There are many cases in 
which a home-owner was prosecuted for killing a burglar.  Burglars have 
sued and won civil cases in which they were shot while in the process of 
committing a robbery.  It's unfortunate but the home-owner has the burden 
of proving he felt he was in mortal danger.

As for me, I keep buckshot cartridges in my rifles, which will discourage 
anyone I shoot, but most likely not kill them.

>Strict gun control over here controls the law abiding and prevents them
>defending themselves. The criminals have no trouble getting all the guns
>they want.
>
>Sorry, I have got it off my chest now.


I think the original writer was Claude-


Don Williams
La Jolla, CA


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At 09:27 PM 5/28/2003 +0100, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Frank,<br><br>
Apologies because this is very off track.<br><br>
Frank, nothing has changed.<br><br>
Following the atrocious act of the Dunblane school massacre a few years
ago<br>
(which no one condones) ALL licensed handguns were banned and had to
be<br>
handed in. Compensation for the cost of the handguns was promised but
still<br>
has not been paid to many individuals, so a keen club pistol shooter
who<br>
&quot;handed over and lost&quot; two pistols tells me.<br><br>
The US constitution with the right to bear arms would be welcomed by some
of<br>
us in the UK. </blockquote><br>
The U.S. Constitution is pretty much silent on the right of
<u>individuals</u> to bear arms.&nbsp; More specifically, the second
amendment reads as follows:<br><br>
<h4><a name="amendmentii"></a>Amendment II</h4>&quot;A well regulated
militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of
the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.&quot;<br><br>
It's clear that if a person is a member of &quot;A well regulated
militia&quot;, he can bear arms as a member.&nbsp; Beyond that, the
individual's right to bear arms has only been established on the basis of
common law at that time, and general usage since that amendment was
passed. <br><br>
Here is a quote from the Congressional Record dealing with a gun control
bill, and you will see that it points towards tradition more than the
Bill of Rights:<br><br>
'The right to bear arms is a <u>tradition</u> with deep roots in American
society. Thomas Jefferson proposed that <i>&quot;no free man shall ever
be debarred the use of arms,&quot;</i> and Samuel Adams called for an
amendment banning any law <i>&quot;to prevent the people of the United
States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.&quot;</i>
The Constitution of the State of Arizona, for example, recognizes the
<i>&quot;right of an individual citizen to bear arms in defense of
himself or the State.&quot; ' <br><br>
</i>Note that I underlined &quot;tradition&quot; in that quote.&nbsp; It
isn't underlined in the Gun Control Committee report from which it is
extracted.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>An Englishman's home is no longer
his castle. An elderly<br>
farmer who shot and killed one of two burglars coming up the stairs to
get<br>
to him is being refused early release from a 7 year jail sentence because
he<br>
does not show sufficient remorse and might offend again! The burglars
had<br>
travelled 60 miles to break into his remote farm, which had been broken
into<br>
a number of times before.</blockquote><br>
That general situation holds in the U.S. as well.&nbsp; There are many
cases in which a home-owner was prosecuted for killing a burglar.&nbsp;
Burglars have sued and won civil cases in which they were shot while in
the process of committing a robbery.&nbsp; It's unfortunate but the
home-owner has the burden of proving he felt he was in mortal
danger.&nbsp; <br><br>
As for me, I keep buckshot cartridges in my rifles, which will discourage
anyone I shoot, but most likely not kill them.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Strict gun control over here
controls the law abiding and prevents them<br>
defending themselves. The criminals have no trouble getting all the
guns<br>
they want.<br><br>
Sorry, I have got it off my chest now.</blockquote><br><br>
I think the original writer was Claude-<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Don Williams<br>
La Jolla, CA<br>
&nbsp;<br>
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